I will admit that when I first got on to this post, my defenses raised just a bit, as I interpreted what was said as a broad stroke against the entire CCM community. The joy though of reading text instead of physically hearing the person is that something can be posted (possibly with the wrong wording), and we can misinterpet what is being said.
I personally dont know Ben, I have never talked to him, but I see what He is saying. In the end, all he is trying to say is that it is a crazy world that we live in and that unfortunately there are groups out there who have stumbled and need our prayers. I dont think it was Ben’s intention to call down fire, brimstone, and judgement on these groups. I think it was basically meant to make us aware that this stuff is happening out there. Should we be surprised? No… what Christian doesnt struggle? Any Christian who is in a front line ministry trying to change lives is under attack… Sadly at one point or other, people will fall. What needs to happen is that we need to come along side them, help them find restoration and healing through God, and hopefully they can be used again.
I know that some of us on here may take exception to all that Ben said, and I will be the first to admit that I dont agree with every statement that he wrote… but lets be real here! Do we really need to call Ben arrogant, or imply him being someone mean spirited who only wants to stir controversy and promote a self righteous attitude? What does that accomplish? Nothing at all… except create more wounded soldiers. Remember that we are all in this together. We are a family, and as so, we have disagreements…. but how we handle those disagreements is what sets us apart from the world.
As the owner of a bus leasing company I have the opportunity to work with artists from all genres. I will have to say that the CCM artists we have worked with have been a pleasent experience.
I have several drivers who previously worked in Southern Gospel. One of then was recently visiting with the group had worked for in the past. A member of the group asked him (self-rightously) how would he feel if his daughter was hanging out on the bus with some of the Rock groups he had driven for. He replied that he would be more botherd if she was hanging out on a QUARTET BUS!
Jesus tells us not to judge. I believe that means judging one group as “worthy” and another as “unworthy.” We see this type of judgement in demoninations, in cultures, in races, and even in little white churches.
In most church circles, we typically take “judging” to mean making a negative presumption. I believe it also means holding someone to a higher plane than deserved. Matter of fact, Jesus taught us to “call no man good.” The best I can be is not good enough without Jesus’ blood covering my sins.
So is watching porn and drinking on their CCM bus a different category of sin than adultry, or gluttony, or envy, or greed on our SG buses? Do CCM singers need God’s grace less than SG singers? How can our industry cast a stone at anyone? They aren’t all “unholy” any more than we are all “holy.”
We get in trouble when we judge ourselves as “worthy” and someone else as “unworthy.”
...So is watching porn and drinking on their CCM bus a different category of sin than adultry, or gluttony, or envy, or greed on our SG buses? Do CCM singers need God’s grace less than SG singers? How can our industry cast a stone at anyone? They aren’t all “unholy” any more than we are all “holy.”
We get in trouble when we judge ourselves as “worthy” and someone else as “unworthy.”
Thank you, FamilyMan.
That’s really what the original post and all that followed amount to: judgement. We’ve all done it, and it’s no lower in the “rank structure” of sin than any of the sins the CCM artists were accused of. Nor is the method by which the accusation was openly shared…gossip.
That’s really what the original post and all that followed amount to: judgement. .
NO that is not what the original post was about…you are wrong on that count. I came home from a very exhausting road trip, and what the driver told me that morning broke my heart more than words can say. I came onto this forum to relay my story looking for a bit of solace and some insight among friends. What I received was far from friendly. This was not about CCM, SG, or the NFL for that matter, it was about being a witness worthy of the position one finds himself placed in. Many have tried to make an undercurrent where none exists. If each one of you could have witnessed what I did, and if you could have felt the heavy heart I had over this, and still do for that matter, you would have understood better the intent. I came out of CCM many years ago, my son is heavily involved in the same.
I apologize. Perhaps I assumed too much when I read the following:
Ben Harris - 16 March 2009 12:49 PM
I have long believed that the rock music influence in our churches was a bad omen of things to come, now I am convinced. If we have individuals out there, claiming to be Christian, but doing these kind of evil things, we need to put an end to this. Our young people deserve a better role model…
I truly believe you’re an okay guy. Okay guys, however, can screw up, too. You made a sharp, judgmental criticism based on the admittedly misunderstood account of one man, then proceeded to twist it into an apparent desire to elevate you and your group - your chosen musical genre even.
Had you stopped short of the above quoted statement, it might have been taken differently, but you didn’t. I am no more worthy of God’s grace than any other human, regardless of my choice of music. When I say or do something out of line with the grace I’m under, causing one (or several, in this case) of my Christian brethren to call me on it, perhaps I should examine myself. Repeatedly defending the offense doesn’t justify it.
Again - I believe you’re an okay guy and had good intentions on the surface. What crept from beneath the surface in your statement or story is what I’ve taken issue with.
I apologize. Perhaps I assumed too much when I read the following:
Ben Harris - 16 March 2009 12:49 PM
I have long believed that the rock music influence in our churches was a bad omen of things to come, now I am convinced. If we have individuals out there, claiming to be Christian, but doing these kind of evil things, we need to put an end to this. Our young people deserve a better role model…
I truly believe you’re an okay guy. Okay guys, however, can screw up, too. You made a sharp, judgmental criticism based on the admittedly misunderstood account of one man, then proceeded to twist it into an apparent desire to elevate you and your group - your chosen musical genre even.
There was never any attempt to elevate our group in any way. The driver asked me a pointed question about my group, in effect did we do the same sort of things, and I told him no. This was simply an account of a very troubling encounter with a gentleman who was in serious pain over this incident. Any person who knows our group know they are straight arrows, that confirmation need not be made. Again, you are still reading far more into the post than was the intent. I do believe that rock music has been a very bad influence on the Church and the nation as a whole. Can anyone deny that? But everyone leaves out the one word in my original post…...IF. This driver happens to be a regular driver for a well known CCM group. He confirmed to me that the group he normally drives for is thourghly in Christian intent and lifestyle. His only other encounter with any Christian group was with the one his coach had been leased to over the past several weeks, and that encounter was evidentaly a bad experience for him. So much so that he broke down in tears. I guess it is one of those things you had to be there to appreciate. Now, I wish I had not been there, for not only is the burden larger, I don’t feel as if I supported him as I should have, probably because I was tired and not expecting the encounter. Plus now I have my good intentions being ran through this meat grinder we call a Christian forum. I am not angry at all, I am disappointed. Surely al of us are willing to stand against such immoral behavior, whether it be CCM, SG, or anyone professing to be Christian. I have received countless emails about this thread, and thus far, all have been in support of my position. I think some are coming to the defense of CCM, quite incorrectly, when everyone should forget that it was a CCM group, but rather realize that it was simply another professing Christian artist presenting the Almighty in a less than positive way. To which, we have had many such failures in Christian music, and this is yet another. It is a bad role model, surely all would agree with that view.
I completely understand the “bad role model” problem. Again, though, you seem to be wrapping it in a deep-rooted judgmental sentiment:
Ben Harris - 19 March 2009 01:06 PM
I do believe that rock music has been a very bad influence on the Church and the nation as a whole.
A father in the 60’s hated long haired men. A Pastor in the 70’s might say wearing jeans to church was sinful. A Southern Gospel singer today believes rock music has been a very bad influence on the church.
The fact is, scores of long-haired, jeans-wearing, rock-singing Christians have won tens of thousands to Christ. They’re simply able to go to places a balding, suit-wearing, four-part-harmony-singing brother will never be welcome.
Reminds me of a man they called “Jesus”. Never was accepted by the church leaders of the day. Turned out to be the Son of God…
Hey Ben,
I understand what you are saying/are trying to say. When I first read your original post I humanly started a mind search of groups who the man you encountered may have been speaking of, since I listen to a lot of CCM and some CR music. I am pretty familiar with them. Then I stopped myself and asked “what am I doing”. This is just another in a long list of examples of how Christians are not exempt and directly/indirectly affected from/by sin. And the moment you think that sin will not harm you or that you are exempt from it– bam. (IF A MAN THINKS HIMSELF WISE LET HIM BECOME A FOOL). I never took it as you being judgmental, but rather caring and compassionate. There should be more accountability in our society and I applaud you and others for caring enough to do just that. Now as far as all of the negative reactions you received please take them as mooooo points. They are like a cow’s opinion, they do not matter – they’re mooooo.
Blessings and keep up the work for THE KINGDOM,
Greg
One who says and does the right thing at the right time without offending
others has a remarkable, rare personality trait of tactfulness. It is worth
more than money. ” In many instances it is better to preserve a discreet
silence than to say what is disagreeable or untruthful. Often, it is not direct
speech alone that wounds or offends, sometimes it is the suggestive criticism
or censure that wounds the most. In this particular discussion forum,
Bro. Ben Harris has offended many of the participants. Three-hundred chinese
people cannot be wrong, istead of defending and back-peddling, just apologize
for speaking in hast, and without tactfullnes.
